So Flash 8 is announced, some great new features for sure, but I was somewhat disappointed in what wasn�t there.
I read this blog by g.wygonik and I agree with what is being said not so much from the aspect of particular features discussed but about development of the IDE in general.
Mike Downey has made several comments on the subject which I feel are very significant and are worth highlighting.
We haven�t done any major code-editing improvements for hand coders as we found that almost all of the hand coders that we interviewed preferred to choose their own text editor. Even if we had added all of the features of an editor like PrimalScript or Eclipse (which would have been far too much work for a single cycle) users told us that they would still use their own editors. So we decided to focus on other things instead
We met with customers all over the world who represent every key segment of the Flash user base (solo devs, creative agencies, educators, enterprise shops, etc) and found that, overwhelmingly, everyone had a different idea of what features a good text editor should have and - even more so - were very attached to their existing text editor solutions.
The number of Flash users who are advanced hand coders and would be willing to give up their text editor to go back into Flash was far too small when compared to the greater base of Flash customers.
In the case of Flash 8, users made it clear that code editor enhancements like the ones mentioned in this thread were important - but not as important as the other things that we did.
We developed Flex because Flash authoring was never going to fit the traditional application developer market (Java/C++/.NET/etc) so we needed to do something new. Flex is not a replacement for Flash, it�s a new solution targetted at a completely different market
Let me summarise:
Mike does say that this doesn�t mean that they are never going to improve the editor/IDE but to be honest that comment doesn�t make a whole lot of sense. If the facts as stated are true then how are you ever going to justify the resources needed to improve the IDE to match that of other similar products (IDEs - Delphi, VisualStudio, Editors-Eclipse,SEPY) particularly when in 2 years (or whenever F9 is out) the IDE will be even further behind the alternatives and the mountain will have become even steeper and higher.
Mike somewhat dismisses the rant about missing features by saying don�t get upset if your own personal favorite feature is not in Flash 8, but I think that is unfair the rant is not so much about one persons favorite feature but about lack of development in general of the IDE stretching back over several generations of Flash.
If we now have to wait until Flash9 to see any improvements that�s a long ways off and I cant see things changing then anyway. We have put resources, time and money with the aim of developing jsfl tools and wizards for use with our components in the IDE, our belief was that a visual IDE was an important element in creating Flash applications and a good IDE is a major productivity benefit to a language (just look at the Delphi IDE) and that someday soon the Flash IDE would be at least brought into the ballpark of VisualStudio (not the greatest IDE by any means ) but I realize now this is just not going to happen. The decision has been made and clearly Macromedia are following a different path.
So as a company focused on RIA�s or supporting developers who create RIA�s I have to take this on board. I shouldn�t be using the IDE to create applications and instead I should use Eclipse. So today I downloaded Eclipse, although we do do a lot of Java development we are not Eclipse users (we use JCreator) so it was something new (also makes me wonder how many MS shops were in MM�s survey group �cos I don�t know of many who use Eclipse) .
I don�t really have a problem with Eclipse but I will say if I am using Eclipse to write my code for sure I am going to use MTASC to compile it. Its just a natural fit and it seems that everyone else has the same idea.
I may be gaining in productivity using Eclipse/MTASC as I don�t spend half my day waiting for a recompile or needing to restart Flash after a crash but its not a visual IDE and in some areas my productivity is going to suffer.
One of the cool things with MTASC. is I can already build Flash8 swf�s even before the release of Flash8.
The question I find myself asking is why would I now want to upgrade to Flash 8? It has nothing to offer me that I don�t already have, and it sounds like its unlikely to have anything for the foreseeable future either.
Its a shame really a good visual IDE is a major productivity boost, Delphi has it, VB has it, others have it, Flash on the other hand doesn�t and seems to be giving up but there is no point in trying to fight lost battles so over time XPComponents will shift its focus away from the Flash IDE towards Eclipse and MTASC as the target development enviroment as MM suggest and so expect to see a lot more from us in this area in the future.
Never thought of it that way, but your post is very visionnary..
ReplyDeleteyour question about what as Flash 8 to offer me is really interesting ...
we all feel that Macromedia as been overwhelmed by Flash popularity .. and they want to make money ... and you don't earn money by selling 'toys' for the nerds / geeks / visual artists out there ... they just suck! so you go professional (same tools, but for 5k) and then you realize you don't even need shit, you can just sell air that smells shit :-))
test
ReplyDeleteI saw Rob's blog entry about Flash 8 and I tried to post a comment. However, I got a 404 error.
ReplyDelete**Sorry David, just upgrade to MT3.2 and screwed up the comments**
Here is my comment to the blog.
Regards,
David
Hello,
(I am from Macromedia).
Let me add some context to Mike's comments.
a) We completely agree that *great* coding/debugging tools are important for RIAs and AS.
b) We completely agree that great visual tools are important for RIAs.
c) We know that not all RIAs will require a Flex *Server*.
d) We learned from customers that we couldn't be all things to all people in a single release. Frankly, I think we tried that a bit with MX 2004 and the feedback was that we didn't do what designers *really* wanted nor did we *really* nail what developers needed. So, we are investing much deeper for both, rather than trying to do a bit of everything with every release.
e) I hope you will be at MAX :) We'll have a LOT to talk about there on these topics.
Regards,
David
ps. I think even if you do work in code and use Eclipse and even MTASC, you will find Flash Professional 8 to be an extremely valuable upgrade. But of course, download it when the trial goes up in September and you tell us.
Great discussion here, and over at greg's blog. I responded over there, and wanted to make sure you saw it also (so i am posting here).
ReplyDelete>aargh. i'm just ranting now. it's just so frustrating to see MM going all over the spectrum of the development world, and not seemingly focusing on any of it fully.
I actually see it the other way. In the past we were going all over the place, Flash auth is for development, flash auth is for animation, flash auth is for design...
It was becoming one of the most schizophrenic tools on the market (sp?).
The last two releases we spent all of the time trying to make Flash authoring tool into something that it was not originally created as (a full featured development IDE). In the process, we alienated everyone who used it for content creation, animation etc (which makes up the vast majority of Flash users), and after two releases, we were no where near where we wanted to be.
So, with Flash 8, we went and talked to users, and tried to really focus on what Flash is good at.
This doesn't mean you can no longer use it as a development tool. You can do everything today with Flash 8, that you could with 2004. However, Flash 8 is much more solid all around, performs better, and does not have all of those little annoying bugs that had built up over the years.
Does this mean that Flash developers are less important to Macromedia now than in the past? Definitely not. In fact, they are more important than ever before (something that I think will become more clear over the next couple of months).
Make sure to read:
http://weblogs.macromedia.com/mesh/archives/2005/08/will_zorn_requi.cfm
This will be everything you would expect in an editor based on Eclipse.
And, you will still be able to use Flash 8 to create your content and assets, or to even structure your app (you can use Flash for your assets and app layout structure, and Zorn to edit your ActionScript).
Again, we will have a lot more info on this in the coming months.
Hope that helps shed some light on what is going on. I can understand the frustration right now, but please try to understand we are making these changes so that we can have more focus for each individual tool, and not less.
>Its a shame really a good visual IDE is a major productivity boost, Delphi has it, VB has it, others have it, Flash on the other hand doesn�t and seems to be giving up
We would never be able to have that built on top of Flash authoring. Zorn gives us an opportunity to start from the ground up, and create this.
mike chambers
mesh@macromedia.com
Now, they beat me too it. If youre paying attention to whats going on so good out here that youre gonna have a shitfit rant over about it, you should have known already...Zorn!!
ReplyDeleteBobby,
ReplyDeleteyes I am aware of Zorn, and unless you are beta tester for Zorn and privy to things that are not public I dont see where you feel there is something to have a shitfit about.
Zorn is not a visual IDE is it?
This makes Flash a bit of an oddity, a visually orientated language without a visual IDE.
Zorn is also pitched as the IDE for flex not flash.
We will need to wait and see whether Zorn isn't tied to Flex and can really be used for Flash applications.
There are currently community (and soon commercial) offerings that enable you to use Eclipse and Flash and though I would presume that MM would be offering soemthing better there is no current basis for that assumption and the alternatives are here and now not some future promise.
Also will Zorn be perfect right out of the box or will we need to go through a few "generations" of zorn before it catches up.
Not meaning to be really negative but I think you need to balance your fervor with a dose of reality, sitting around waiting for the "next release" to get in the ball game and then finding it doesn't is all to familiar a story here.